State Seeding and 'Dodging'
Quote from Grappler #1 on February 3, 2023, 12:07 pmSeeding criteria for the state tournament through trackwrestling has regressed high school wrestling into something I’m starting to despise. Ever since the state seeded the state tournament using trackwrestling instead of the random draw- we’ve seen many kids/coaches ‘dodge’ wrestlers later in the season to preserve their seed at state. There have been many examples this season where a wrestler may win a match in December- then do everything they can to avoid wrestling that kid again to save a seed.
If wrestlers ‘dodge’ kids to save seeds during the season- should they be the #1 seed at state? This has set a precedence that is contrary to the intent of having trackwrestling seed the state tournament-which I thought was to put the best . I know many did not like the random draw of region placers (1 vs 4 , 2 vs 3), but from what I’ve seen it was as accurate as the trackwrestling model we are using now- with a lot less ‘dodging’.
Seeding criteria for the state tournament through trackwrestling has regressed high school wrestling into something I’m starting to despise. Ever since the state seeded the state tournament using trackwrestling instead of the random draw- we’ve seen many kids/coaches ‘dodge’ wrestlers later in the season to preserve their seed at state. There have been many examples this season where a wrestler may win a match in December- then do everything they can to avoid wrestling that kid again to save a seed.
If wrestlers ‘dodge’ kids to save seeds during the season- should they be the #1 seed at state? This has set a precedence that is contrary to the intent of having trackwrestling seed the state tournament-which I thought was to put the best . I know many did not like the random draw of region placers (1 vs 4 , 2 vs 3), but from what I’ve seen it was as accurate as the trackwrestling model we are using now- with a lot less ‘dodging’.
Quote from Fat125 on February 3, 2023, 1:04 pmThe random draw had a 33% chance of having the best two kids meet in the semis instead of the finals (assuming the top 2 kids were not in the same region). I think seeding is still a step in the right direction and has a much better chance of having the finals be a true final, but maybe it is overdone. I think I would prefer seeding 8 instead of 10. If we only place 8, it seems kinda weird to seed 10. Just my two cents.
The random draw had a 33% chance of having the best two kids meet in the semis instead of the finals (assuming the top 2 kids were not in the same region). I think seeding is still a step in the right direction and has a much better chance of having the finals be a true final, but maybe it is overdone. I think I would prefer seeding 8 instead of 10. If we only place 8, it seems kinda weird to seed 10. Just my two cents.
Quote from Dat Guy on February 6, 2023, 4:52 amI have no problem seeding 10 kids. In most weight classes, the kids seeded 7-10 are very competitive with one another. In theory, those 4 kids are fighting for the last 2 placing spots. I like it better than the kid that is seeded 9th drawing the 1 seed in the first round.
As for the dodging problem, I think we could take elements of both random draw and seeding state to make it better.
1. keep the 1 vs 4 and 2 vs 3 format for the first round. No kid should wrestle another kid from their region until the semifinals or 2nd round wrestlebacks.
2. Seed only the 4 region champs against one another. 1 and 4 seeds would wrestle each other in the Semis on top of the bracket while 2 and 3 would wrestle on the bottom side of the bracket.
3. Keep 2nd place kids from each region on the opposite side of the bracket. This ensures that the top 2 kids in state should always meet in the state finals, and never sooner.
I think this would help state wide dodging even though kids may dodge to help region seeding. Not much you can do about that.
Bottom line is that it is hard to win state no matter where you land in the bracket. Wrestling is supposed to be fun so I hope no coaches are making a healthy kid sit on the bench with the sole purpose to get him/her a better seed at state.
I have no problem seeding 10 kids. In most weight classes, the kids seeded 7-10 are very competitive with one another. In theory, those 4 kids are fighting for the last 2 placing spots. I like it better than the kid that is seeded 9th drawing the 1 seed in the first round.
As for the dodging problem, I think we could take elements of both random draw and seeding state to make it better.
1. keep the 1 vs 4 and 2 vs 3 format for the first round. No kid should wrestle another kid from their region until the semifinals or 2nd round wrestlebacks.
2. Seed only the 4 region champs against one another. 1 and 4 seeds would wrestle each other in the Semis on top of the bracket while 2 and 3 would wrestle on the bottom side of the bracket.
3. Keep 2nd place kids from each region on the opposite side of the bracket. This ensures that the top 2 kids in state should always meet in the state finals, and never sooner.
I think this would help state wide dodging even though kids may dodge to help region seeding. Not much you can do about that.
Bottom line is that it is hard to win state no matter where you land in the bracket. Wrestling is supposed to be fun so I hope no coaches are making a healthy kid sit on the bench with the sole purpose to get him/her a better seed at state.
Quote from Sdjetsfan on February 7, 2023, 4:19 pmAbsolutely cannot go back to the random draw. That era was worse than where we are now.
Absolutely cannot go back to the random draw. That era was worse than where we are now.
Quote from Armbar on February 9, 2023, 1:01 pmQuote from Grappler #1 on February 3, 2023, 12:07 pmSeeding criteria for the state tournament through trackwrestling has regressed high school wrestling into something I’m starting to despise. Ever since the state seeded the state tournament using trackwrestling instead of the random draw- we’ve seen many kids/coaches ‘dodge’ wrestlers later in the season to preserve their seed at state. There have been many examples this season where a wrestler may win a match in December- then do everything they can to avoid wrestling that kid again to save a seed.
If wrestlers ‘dodge’ kids to save seeds during the season- should they be the #1 seed at state? This has set a precedence that is contrary to the intent of having trackwrestling seed the state tournament-which I thought was to put the best . I know many did not like the random draw of region placers (1 vs 4 , 2 vs 3), but from what I’ve seen it was as accurate as the trackwrestling model we are using now- with a lot less ‘dodging’.
I'm pretty sure I called that one, the dodge anyway. IMO the 1 vs 4 and 2 vs 3 and a kid from each Region was Best. I realize that there was a 33% chance of the best two kids in the Semis. But, that would have been an easy tweek. You could have seeded the top 2 guys so that they are on opposite sides and still useing the 1 v 4 and 2 v 3 system.
Quote from Grappler #1 on February 3, 2023, 12:07 pmSeeding criteria for the state tournament through trackwrestling has regressed high school wrestling into something I’m starting to despise. Ever since the state seeded the state tournament using trackwrestling instead of the random draw- we’ve seen many kids/coaches ‘dodge’ wrestlers later in the season to preserve their seed at state. There have been many examples this season where a wrestler may win a match in December- then do everything they can to avoid wrestling that kid again to save a seed.
If wrestlers ‘dodge’ kids to save seeds during the season- should they be the #1 seed at state? This has set a precedence that is contrary to the intent of having trackwrestling seed the state tournament-which I thought was to put the best . I know many did not like the random draw of region placers (1 vs 4 , 2 vs 3), but from what I’ve seen it was as accurate as the trackwrestling model we are using now- with a lot less ‘dodging’.
I'm pretty sure I called that one, the dodge anyway. IMO the 1 vs 4 and 2 vs 3 and a kid from each Region was Best. I realize that there was a 33% chance of the best two kids in the Semis. But, that would have been an easy tweek. You could have seeded the top 2 guys so that they are on opposite sides and still useing the 1 v 4 and 2 v 3 system.
Quote from Armbar on February 9, 2023, 1:45 pmQuote from JS on February 6, 2023, 4:52 amI have no problem seeding 10 kids. In most weight classes, the kids seeded 7-10 are very competitive with one another. In theory, those 4 kids are fighting for the last 2 placing spots. I like it better than the kid that is seeded 9th drawing the 1 seed in the first round.
As for the dodging problem, I think we could take elements of both random draw and seeding state to make it better.
1. keep the 1 vs 4 and 2 vs 3 format for the first round. No kid should wrestle another kid from their region until the semifinals or 2nd round wrestlebacks.
2. Seed only the 4 region champs against one another. 1 and 4 seeds would wrestle each other in the Semis on top of the bracket while 2 and 3 would wrestle on the bottom side of the bracket.
3. Keep 2nd place kids from each region on the opposite side of the bracket. This ensures that the top 2 kids in state should always meet in the state finals, and never sooner.
I think this would help state wide dodging even though kids may dodge to help region seeding. Not much you can do about that.
Bottom line is that it is hard to win state no matter where you land in the bracket. Wrestling is supposed to be fun so I hope no coaches are making a healthy kid sit on the bench with the sole purpose to get him/her a better seed at state.
This is pretty much exactly what I was saying every time this topic came up years ago.
Quote from JS on February 6, 2023, 4:52 amI have no problem seeding 10 kids. In most weight classes, the kids seeded 7-10 are very competitive with one another. In theory, those 4 kids are fighting for the last 2 placing spots. I like it better than the kid that is seeded 9th drawing the 1 seed in the first round.
As for the dodging problem, I think we could take elements of both random draw and seeding state to make it better.
1. keep the 1 vs 4 and 2 vs 3 format for the first round. No kid should wrestle another kid from their region until the semifinals or 2nd round wrestlebacks.
2. Seed only the 4 region champs against one another. 1 and 4 seeds would wrestle each other in the Semis on top of the bracket while 2 and 3 would wrestle on the bottom side of the bracket.
3. Keep 2nd place kids from each region on the opposite side of the bracket. This ensures that the top 2 kids in state should always meet in the state finals, and never sooner.
I think this would help state wide dodging even though kids may dodge to help region seeding. Not much you can do about that.
Bottom line is that it is hard to win state no matter where you land in the bracket. Wrestling is supposed to be fun so I hope no coaches are making a healthy kid sit on the bench with the sole purpose to get him/her a better seed at state.
This is pretty much exactly what I was saying every time this topic came up years ago.
Quote from Armbar on February 9, 2023, 1:54 pmQuote from JS on February 6, 2023, 4:52 amI have no problem seeding 10 kids. In most weight classes, the kids seeded 7-10 are very competitive with one another. In theory, those 4 kids are fighting for the last 2 placing spots. I like it better than the kid that is seeded 9th drawing the 1 seed in the first round.
As for the dodging problem, I think we could take elements of both random draw and seeding state to make it better.
1. keep the 1 vs 4 and 2 vs 3 format for the first round. No kid should wrestle another kid from their region until the semifinals or 2nd round wrestlebacks.
2. Seed only the 4 region champs against one another. 1 and 4 seeds would wrestle each other in the Semis on top of the bracket while 2 and 3 would wrestle on the bottom side of the bracket.
3. Keep 2nd place kids from each region on the opposite side of the bracket. This ensures that the top 2 kids in state should always meet in the state finals, and never sooner.
I think this would help state wide dodging even though kids may dodge to help region seeding. Not much you can do about that.
Bottom line is that it is hard to win state no matter where you land in the bracket. Wrestling is supposed to be fun so I hope no coaches are making a healthy kid sit on the bench with the sole purpose to get him/her a better seed at state.
Don't they seed to 16? Not sure why you wouldn't just do that if you're seeding to 10. I know that there have been years in ND where I think I could have got a kid to place if he didn't draw a 3-6 seed. Had he been seeded 7 or 8 or drew one of those kids I'm betting he places, as he had wins over them, but they had wins over guys that beat him and criteria gave them the seed. If you draw the 1,2 or 7,8 it's a much better chance to place.
Quote from JS on February 6, 2023, 4:52 amI have no problem seeding 10 kids. In most weight classes, the kids seeded 7-10 are very competitive with one another. In theory, those 4 kids are fighting for the last 2 placing spots. I like it better than the kid that is seeded 9th drawing the 1 seed in the first round.
As for the dodging problem, I think we could take elements of both random draw and seeding state to make it better.
1. keep the 1 vs 4 and 2 vs 3 format for the first round. No kid should wrestle another kid from their region until the semifinals or 2nd round wrestlebacks.
2. Seed only the 4 region champs against one another. 1 and 4 seeds would wrestle each other in the Semis on top of the bracket while 2 and 3 would wrestle on the bottom side of the bracket.
3. Keep 2nd place kids from each region on the opposite side of the bracket. This ensures that the top 2 kids in state should always meet in the state finals, and never sooner.
I think this would help state wide dodging even though kids may dodge to help region seeding. Not much you can do about that.
Bottom line is that it is hard to win state no matter where you land in the bracket. Wrestling is supposed to be fun so I hope no coaches are making a healthy kid sit on the bench with the sole purpose to get him/her a better seed at state.
Don't they seed to 16? Not sure why you wouldn't just do that if you're seeding to 10. I know that there have been years in ND where I think I could have got a kid to place if he didn't draw a 3-6 seed. Had he been seeded 7 or 8 or drew one of those kids I'm betting he places, as he had wins over them, but they had wins over guys that beat him and criteria gave them the seed. If you draw the 1,2 or 7,8 it's a much better chance to place.
Quote from Fat125 on February 10, 2023, 12:04 pmRight now, they only seed the top 10. Then 11 - 16 get drawn in randomly. You are correct that for an unseeded wrestler, 15th is probably the best place to be drawn in to. You likely lose to the 2 seed first, then you have the 10 seed (who likely loses to the 7) and then you have either the 8 or 9 seed (who will likely lose to the 1 seed) in order to place. There is definitely still some measure of luck involved. I personally like the idea of just seeding the top 8 and drawing in 9-16, but after thinking about it, you could probably convince me to go along with just seeding the 4 region champs. Both ways are better than the blind draw.
Right now, they only seed the top 10. Then 11 - 16 get drawn in randomly. You are correct that for an unseeded wrestler, 15th is probably the best place to be drawn in to. You likely lose to the 2 seed first, then you have the 10 seed (who likely loses to the 7) and then you have either the 8 or 9 seed (who will likely lose to the 1 seed) in order to place. There is definitely still some measure of luck involved. I personally like the idea of just seeding the top 8 and drawing in 9-16, but after thinking about it, you could probably convince me to go along with just seeding the 4 region champs. Both ways are better than the blind draw.
Quote from Armbar on February 20, 2023, 9:09 amIt's NEVER been a blind draw. 1 vs 4 & 2 vs 3 with each Region represented in each 4 man Quarter. Plus, Region 1 & 2 were always on opposite sides. This guaranteed no Region match-ups for 1st 2 rounds!
It's NEVER been a blind draw. 1 vs 4 & 2 vs 3 with each Region represented in each 4 man Quarter. Plus, Region 1 & 2 were always on opposite sides. This guaranteed no Region match-ups for 1st 2 rounds!
Quote from Convoy on February 20, 2023, 9:43 amQuote from Armbar on February 20, 2023, 9:09 amIt's NEVER been a blind draw. 1 vs 4 & 2 vs 3 with each Region represented in each 4 man Quarter. Plus, Region 1 & 2 were always on opposite sides. This guaranteed no Region match-ups for 1st 2 rounds!
Why not just seed all 16 spots and be done with it.
If track has the criteria it should spit out the seeds in less than 5 minutes (Track is only as good as the information entered in to it)
If two from the same region wrestle first round its because of their seed.
Quote from Armbar on February 20, 2023, 9:09 amIt's NEVER been a blind draw. 1 vs 4 & 2 vs 3 with each Region represented in each 4 man Quarter. Plus, Region 1 & 2 were always on opposite sides. This guaranteed no Region match-ups for 1st 2 rounds!
Why not just seed all 16 spots and be done with it.
If track has the criteria it should spit out the seeds in less than 5 minutes (Track is only as good as the information entered in to it)
If two from the same region wrestle first round its because of their seed.
Quote from Blackhawk on February 21, 2023, 11:50 pmI am a coach in another state. we have only 2 seeding criteria.
- must be region champion
- Must be returning state placer.
this will get you on the opposite side of the brackets. if other have seed criteria . higher state placer will have higher seed. so only 4 seedable athletes. then with the 1-4 2-3 match up. not perfect but works .
I am a coach in another state. we have only 2 seeding criteria.
- must be region champion
- Must be returning state placer.
this will get you on the opposite side of the brackets. if other have seed criteria . higher state placer will have higher seed. so only 4 seedable athletes. then with the 1-4 2-3 match up. not perfect but works .
Quote from dvmpete on February 26, 2023, 4:38 pmAnother perspective is that it seems ironic that on the one hand the SDHSAA is trying to promote duals as a way of growing the sport among the fans (hence initiating the state dual tournament)...then, on the other hand, the state also starts seeding the state tournament, which leads to dodging during the duals to protect your seed (no consequences for dodging at a dual). It kills fan interest/excitement when you go to a dual expecting to see certain matchups that don't materialize due to the dodge factor.
I also think, as a life lesson, we should be promoting the values of always showing up and going out there to compete/do your best, instead of "whenever faced with a challenge, don't risk anything." I think the state tournament seeding policy promotes the latter.
I agree with earlier posts that a possible compromise would be to seed the four Region Champs, plus send #1 and #2 in each region to opposite sides of the bracket. At least there would be less dodging and the top two in each weight class wouldn't meet in the semis, which seems to be the go-to argument for seeding the state tournament.
Another perspective is that it seems ironic that on the one hand the SDHSAA is trying to promote duals as a way of growing the sport among the fans (hence initiating the state dual tournament)...then, on the other hand, the state also starts seeding the state tournament, which leads to dodging during the duals to protect your seed (no consequences for dodging at a dual). It kills fan interest/excitement when you go to a dual expecting to see certain matchups that don't materialize due to the dodge factor.
I also think, as a life lesson, we should be promoting the values of always showing up and going out there to compete/do your best, instead of "whenever faced with a challenge, don't risk anything." I think the state tournament seeding policy promotes the latter.
I agree with earlier posts that a possible compromise would be to seed the four Region Champs, plus send #1 and #2 in each region to opposite sides of the bracket. At least there would be less dodging and the top two in each weight class wouldn't meet in the semis, which seems to be the go-to argument for seeding the state tournament.
Quote from 3moves on February 26, 2023, 5:03 pmDual Wrestling should be done week prior to Regions at a "Dual Tournament". You could place this anywhere middle of the state. Mitchell wouldn't be a bad place to host it as far as geography and capability to do so. First 2 rounds and place out the rest. then have the finals at State after the Championship round. I think you would generate a lot more fan(and wrestler) interest if it were the same night as individual finals.
Dual Wrestling should be done week prior to Regions at a "Dual Tournament". You could place this anywhere middle of the state. Mitchell wouldn't be a bad place to host it as far as geography and capability to do so. First 2 rounds and place out the rest. then have the finals at State after the Championship round. I think you would generate a lot more fan(and wrestler) interest if it were the same night as individual finals.
Quote from SDGopher on February 26, 2023, 8:14 pmOne way to get more interest in the State duals is to get them started at the AAU level.
One way to get more interest in the State duals is to get them started at the AAU level.
Quote from jobro04 on February 26, 2023, 8:35 pmQuote from SDGopher on February 26, 2023, 8:14 pmOne way to get more interest in the State duals is to get them started at the AAU level.
Most clubs couldn’t fill a full roster though.
Quote from SDGopher on February 26, 2023, 8:14 pmOne way to get more interest in the State duals is to get them started at the AAU level.
Most clubs couldn’t fill a full roster though.
Quote from Poloboy94 on February 26, 2023, 9:43 pmChange regions from four to two. Have 2 regions go at it and take the top 8 to state and seed it the way it use to. ND does it this way at least the regions. Not sure how they seed it. This also levels out the strong regions to get the top 8 to state from each one.
I like the state dual tournament idea of the weekend before. Or maybe the following weekend. Individual placings are super important. This would give them a week to recover and be ready. Before or after for that means. Just a thought.
Change regions from four to two. Have 2 regions go at it and take the top 8 to state and seed it the way it use to. ND does it this way at least the regions. Not sure how they seed it. This also levels out the strong regions to get the top 8 to state from each one.
I like the state dual tournament idea of the weekend before. Or maybe the following weekend. Individual placings are super important. This would give them a week to recover and be ready. Before or after for that means. Just a thought.
Quote from Titan on February 26, 2023, 10:17 pmCan’t do duals before, that wld be similar to 3 years ago and teams won’t send their kids out for what cld be a finals match in individual tourney. Some wouldn’t even send em out this year in duals and the champs had already been crowned, give us the good matches! And the kids want them too
Can’t do duals before, that wld be similar to 3 years ago and teams won’t send their kids out for what cld be a finals match in individual tourney. Some wouldn’t even send em out this year in duals and the champs had already been crowned, give us the good matches! And the kids want them too
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