State Seeding
Quote from WellArmed on February 14, 2022, 9:44 amWhat does everyone think about the #4 and #5 region placers being seeded higher in the state tournament than the #3 region placer ?
To clarify ...In 11 of the 14 Class A brackets, the #3 guy is seeded lower than the #4 and #5.
What does everyone think about the #4 and #5 region placers being seeded higher in the state tournament than the #3 region placer ?
To clarify ...In 11 of the 14 Class A brackets, the #3 guy is seeded lower than the #4 and #5.
Quote from Travis Carr on February 14, 2022, 10:46 amSounds dumb from what I hear but could someone explain the process used in class A this year?
Just curious since there's no seeding meeting like class B and they didn't use the same method as last year so what was the process?
Sounds dumb from what I hear but could someone explain the process used in class A this year?
Just curious since there's no seeding meeting like class B and they didn't use the same method as last year so what was the process?
Quote from Dakota Grappler on February 14, 2022, 11:12 amClass A put a committee together that requested to not seed the A... (Not sure why?) But they decided to put the Region placings as the criteria only... which I don't agree with.. It places to much pressure on one tourney and not the entirety of the season! So, if you place 1st you go against 8 in the other region 2 vs 7, 3 vs 6 etc... then they flip for which side the three goes on to eliminate forfeits in the third place matches... to avoid people purposely forfeiting to be on the opposite side of the number 1 wrestler...
Crazy... but we supposedly are using this for this year and next year... Makes me go crazy... and Next year if Class B goes to super Regions Please don't use this as your guide on how to handle your state brackets...
Class A put a committee together that requested to not seed the A... (Not sure why?) But they decided to put the Region placings as the criteria only... which I don't agree with.. It places to much pressure on one tourney and not the entirety of the season! So, if you place 1st you go against 8 in the other region 2 vs 7, 3 vs 6 etc... then they flip for which side the three goes on to eliminate forfeits in the third place matches... to avoid people purposely forfeiting to be on the opposite side of the number 1 wrestler...
Crazy... but we supposedly are using this for this year and next year... Makes me go crazy... and Next year if Class B goes to super Regions Please don't use this as your guide on how to handle your state brackets...
Quote from Travis Carr on February 14, 2022, 11:57 amSo are the pairings in the bracket random outside the 1 seed or are they in their normal spots? How would, for example, Ethan Miller at 145 who took 3rd at regionals be in the #8 seed spot?
So are the pairings in the bracket random outside the 1 seed or are they in their normal spots? How would, for example, Ethan Miller at 145 who took 3rd at regionals be in the #8 seed spot?
Quote from Viper on February 15, 2022, 12:04 pmQuote from Dakota Grappler on February 14, 2022, 11:12 amClass A put a committee together that requested to not seed the A... (Not sure why?) But they decided to put the Region placings as the criteria only... which I don't agree with.. It places to much pressure on one tourney and not the entirety of the season! So, if you place 1st you go against 8 in the other region 2 vs 7, 3 vs 6 etc... then they flip for which side the three goes on to eliminate forfeits in the third place matches... to avoid people purposely forfeiting to be on the opposite side of the number 1 wrestler...
Crazy... but we supposedly are using this for this year and next year... Makes me go crazy... and Next year if Class B goes to super Regions Please don't use this as your guide on how to handle your state brackets...
Wow, crazy that A and B are being done differently! I can see the logic behind both ways, but realistically you will have one region with more ranked kids than the other and this will ultimately cause upsets in the (state) bracket. Really no way to avoid this with it being done this way. I'm interested to see how it goes down
Quote from Dakota Grappler on February 14, 2022, 11:12 amClass A put a committee together that requested to not seed the A... (Not sure why?) But they decided to put the Region placings as the criteria only... which I don't agree with.. It places to much pressure on one tourney and not the entirety of the season! So, if you place 1st you go against 8 in the other region 2 vs 7, 3 vs 6 etc... then they flip for which side the three goes on to eliminate forfeits in the third place matches... to avoid people purposely forfeiting to be on the opposite side of the number 1 wrestler...
Crazy... but we supposedly are using this for this year and next year... Makes me go crazy... and Next year if Class B goes to super Regions Please don't use this as your guide on how to handle your state brackets...
Wow, crazy that A and B are being done differently! I can see the logic behind both ways, but realistically you will have one region with more ranked kids than the other and this will ultimately cause upsets in the (state) bracket. Really no way to avoid this with it being done this way. I'm interested to see how it goes down
Quote from Scut Farkus on February 15, 2022, 5:01 pmSeems like the perfect scenario, in today's day and age. Kids who bust their butts and finish 3rd in the region get hosed. Kid who got beat 17-0 in the regional 3rd place match, gets a better seed than the kid who mopped the mat with him. So, why not just win the one match at regionals required to get to the state tourney, and call it a day? This system also screws the teams as well, in terms of team points.
Leave it to the NDHSAA to completely screw up a system that worked, even if not quite perfectly.....
Seems like the perfect scenario, in today's day and age. Kids who bust their butts and finish 3rd in the region get hosed. Kid who got beat 17-0 in the regional 3rd place match, gets a better seed than the kid who mopped the mat with him. So, why not just win the one match at regionals required to get to the state tourney, and call it a day? This system also screws the teams as well, in terms of team points.
Leave it to the NDHSAA to completely screw up a system that worked, even if not quite perfectly.....
Quote from WellArmed on February 15, 2022, 10:58 pmWhat is happening is complete bullsh*t.
If you don't think its complete bullshit, it means that you think the #4 and #5 Region finisher SHOULD be seeded HIGHER at the State Tournament than the #3 Region finisher.
Since Travis referenced it, I'll use Ethan Miller as an example. He is 2-o vs Colton Young from Devils Lake (49 second pin and 6-1 win) and 1-0 vs Yassir Hussaini from Fargo South (17-0 TF). He beat both of them in the EDC Region Tournament. YET...he is seeded behind them at the State Tournament.
It's not just Miller...its... well....11 of the 14 #3 Region finishers. Rasmussen of Jamestown comes to mind.
Additionally, it penalizes the top seed. They now get the "#4 best guy" in the quarters rather than the true #8 seed. It gives the #2 seed (well, the guy at the bottom of the bracket) a MUCH easier path to the semis.
This happened in 11 of the 14 brackets. 3 are "correct". 11 have "reward the lower place finisher bracket" going on. Supposedly they flipped a coin in for each bracket to see if they were going to use the normal bracket or the b.s. one. 11 of the 14 ended up the b.s one. Now, they shouldn't have been flipping coins at all. The higher placed finisher should NEVER be penalized for finishing higher. But there is exactly a 2.22% chance that you can flip a coin and get heads 11 of 14 times.
There ARE folks out there that are arguing that's the CORRECT thing to do. I'd love to see them give their rationale.
Here is the "why" on why it it was done. They don't want someone "sandbagging" to end up in a certain place in the bracket in the State Tournament. So some brilliant mind came up with "alternative" bracket, to make kids not want to sandbag.
Bottom line is....someone is so worried about someone sandbagging, that they are penalizing the kids that DIDN'T sandbag.
So I'm wondering, say at State...are they going to give the 7th place finisher the 3rd place award and recognition, because....hey...since we are into rewarding those that finished lower.... we could just as well roll with it.
Welcome to liberal America.
The fix... there are 2 choices.
1.) Go back to the seeding meeting. Sure, it took 3 hours...but it was mostly effective.
2.) Go back to 1E vs 8W, 1W v 8E, etc.The one thing we can't do, is penalize kids that put forth a winning effort,which is what is happening.
What is happening is complete bullsh*t.
If you don't think its complete bullshit, it means that you think the #4 and #5 Region finisher SHOULD be seeded HIGHER at the State Tournament than the #3 Region finisher.
Since Travis referenced it, I'll use Ethan Miller as an example. He is 2-o vs Colton Young from Devils Lake (49 second pin and 6-1 win) and 1-0 vs Yassir Hussaini from Fargo South (17-0 TF). He beat both of them in the EDC Region Tournament. YET...he is seeded behind them at the State Tournament.
It's not just Miller...its... well....11 of the 14 #3 Region finishers. Rasmussen of Jamestown comes to mind.
Additionally, it penalizes the top seed. They now get the "#4 best guy" in the quarters rather than the true #8 seed. It gives the #2 seed (well, the guy at the bottom of the bracket) a MUCH easier path to the semis.
This happened in 11 of the 14 brackets. 3 are "correct". 11 have "reward the lower place finisher bracket" going on. Supposedly they flipped a coin in for each bracket to see if they were going to use the normal bracket or the b.s. one. 11 of the 14 ended up the b.s one. Now, they shouldn't have been flipping coins at all. The higher placed finisher should NEVER be penalized for finishing higher. But there is exactly a 2.22% chance that you can flip a coin and get heads 11 of 14 times.
There ARE folks out there that are arguing that's the CORRECT thing to do. I'd love to see them give their rationale.
Here is the "why" on why it it was done. They don't want someone "sandbagging" to end up in a certain place in the bracket in the State Tournament. So some brilliant mind came up with "alternative" bracket, to make kids not want to sandbag.
Bottom line is....someone is so worried about someone sandbagging, that they are penalizing the kids that DIDN'T sandbag.
So I'm wondering, say at State...are they going to give the 7th place finisher the 3rd place award and recognition, because....hey...since we are into rewarding those that finished lower.... we could just as well roll with it.
Welcome to liberal America.
The fix... there are 2 choices.
1.) Go back to the seeding meeting. Sure, it took 3 hours...but it was mostly effective.
2.) Go back to 1E vs 8W, 1W v 8E, etc.
The one thing we can't do, is penalize kids that put forth a winning effort,which is what is happening.
Quote from Pistol1putt on February 16, 2022, 8:44 amWere coaches and ADs included in the discussion of this change? I don't think how this has played out should surprise people. How about seeding the whole bracket rather than East vs West? Or seeding the top 8, then drawing in? Or just enter all the info into Track Wrestling and the criteria and use it to seed the tournament.
Were coaches and ADs included in the discussion of this change? I don't think how this has played out should surprise people. How about seeding the whole bracket rather than East vs West? Or seeding the top 8, then drawing in? Or just enter all the info into Track Wrestling and the criteria and use it to seed the tournament.
Quote from Mitch Greenwood on February 16, 2022, 9:23 amQuote from Pistol1putt on February 16, 2022, 8:44 amWere coaches and ADs included in the discussion of this change? I don't think how this has played out should surprise people. How about seeding the whole bracket rather than East vs West? Or seeding the top 8, then drawing in? Or just enter all the info into Track Wrestling and the criteria and use it to seed the tournament.
From what I heard, it was a proposal that came from the coaches to do this on a 2-year trial basis to see how they like it and then decide if they would keep it or go back to regular seeding.
would the be a better fix so that the "Seeding" doesn't reward the lower placing wrestler? Flip a coin for these two brackets?
Bracket 1:
W1 vs. E8
W5 vs. E4
W3 vs. E6
W7 vs. E2
W2 vs. E7
W6 vs. E3
W4 vs. E5
W8 vs. E1Bracket 2:
W1 vs. E8
W4 vs. E5
W6 vs. E3
W7 vs. E2
W2 vs. E7
W3 vs. E6
W5 vs E4
W8 vs. E1
Quote from Pistol1putt on February 16, 2022, 8:44 amWere coaches and ADs included in the discussion of this change? I don't think how this has played out should surprise people. How about seeding the whole bracket rather than East vs West? Or seeding the top 8, then drawing in? Or just enter all the info into Track Wrestling and the criteria and use it to seed the tournament.
From what I heard, it was a proposal that came from the coaches to do this on a 2-year trial basis to see how they like it and then decide if they would keep it or go back to regular seeding.
would the be a better fix so that the "Seeding" doesn't reward the lower placing wrestler? Flip a coin for these two brackets?
Bracket 1:
W1 vs. E8
W5 vs. E4
W3 vs. E6
W7 vs. E2
W2 vs. E7
W6 vs. E3
W4 vs. E5
W8 vs. E1
Bracket 2:
W1 vs. E8
W4 vs. E5
W6 vs. E3
W7 vs. E2
W2 vs. E7
W3 vs. E6
W5 vs E4
W8 vs. E1
Quote from WellArmed on February 16, 2022, 11:51 amQuote from Pistol1putt on February 16, 2022, 8:44 am1.) Were coaches and ADs included in the discussion of this change? I don't think how this has played out should surprise people.
2.) How about seeding the whole bracket rather than East vs West? Or seeding the top 8, then drawing in?
1.) No AD's as far as I know. Besides, most AD's aren't that deep into wrestling to know or care about the seeding process. From what I was told, it was 4 WDA coaches and 1 EDC coach that that were on the "board" or whatever that made the decision and took it to the NDHSAA. NDHSAA said "okay if this is how you want it, we'll do it"
2.)this is the way it was done up til 2019-2020 season. Coaches get together and seed the top 8 for the state tournament based on criteria such as head to head, common opponents, etc. Rest were random draws. Worked well, but took time and a meeting of all coaches. With Zoom, its really not a big travel issue anymore.
In the 2020-2021 season, there were no regionals, everyone went to state. At the region seeding meeting, the WDA and EDC seeded their top 8 based on criteria, then those were put in a bracket at state with 1W vs 8E, etc.
Quote from Pistol1putt on February 16, 2022, 8:44 am1.) Were coaches and ADs included in the discussion of this change? I don't think how this has played out should surprise people.
2.) How about seeding the whole bracket rather than East vs West? Or seeding the top 8, then drawing in?
1.) No AD's as far as I know. Besides, most AD's aren't that deep into wrestling to know or care about the seeding process. From what I was told, it was 4 WDA coaches and 1 EDC coach that that were on the "board" or whatever that made the decision and took it to the NDHSAA. NDHSAA said "okay if this is how you want it, we'll do it"
2.)this is the way it was done up til 2019-2020 season. Coaches get together and seed the top 8 for the state tournament based on criteria such as head to head, common opponents, etc. Rest were random draws. Worked well, but took time and a meeting of all coaches. With Zoom, its really not a big travel issue anymore.
In the 2020-2021 season, there were no regionals, everyone went to state. At the region seeding meeting, the WDA and EDC seeded their top 8 based on criteria, then those were put in a bracket at state with 1W vs 8E, etc.
Quote from Dean Mueller on February 17, 2022, 3:32 pmI just watched the perfect example of why this mode of bracketing a state tournament is complete BS!
Berg VS Mewes at 160 in the quarterfinals. I would bet that if this tournament had been seeded.. I would have been watching that match on Saturday night!!
I just watched the perfect example of why this mode of bracketing a state tournament is complete BS!
Berg VS Mewes at 160 in the quarterfinals. I would bet that if this tournament had been seeded.. I would have been watching that match on Saturday night!!
Quote from Dean Mueller on February 17, 2022, 3:57 pmStaying in the same weight class, 160 in class A. If this tournament is seeded I would guess that Porter of West Fargo gets the 3 seed. Jangula of Bismarck likely gets the 4 or 5 seed, with a decent shot at making the semis. Now Porter and Jangula meet in the Quarterfinals. The way they did this, it’s as if Porter was a 2 seed ( not far off) and Jangula was a 7 seed.. which he clearly wouldn’t have been.
complete nonsense!
Staying in the same weight class, 160 in class A. If this tournament is seeded I would guess that Porter of West Fargo gets the 3 seed. Jangula of Bismarck likely gets the 4 or 5 seed, with a decent shot at making the semis. Now Porter and Jangula meet in the Quarterfinals. The way they did this, it’s as if Porter was a 2 seed ( not far off) and Jangula was a 7 seed.. which he clearly wouldn’t have been.
complete nonsense!
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