Seeding
Quote from Nacho on February 18, 2022, 6:07 pmWondering if anyone has a good understanding of the "TrackWrestling default Common criteria?" It is the 2nd criteria for region and state seeding so I am wondering how it works for wrestlers without a head-to-head matchup or those in a 3-way split. And then at what point does it move on to the 3rd criteria which is last years place at state?
Wondering if anyone has a good understanding of the "TrackWrestling default Common criteria?" It is the 2nd criteria for region and state seeding so I am wondering how it works for wrestlers without a head-to-head matchup or those in a 3-way split. And then at what point does it move on to the 3rd criteria which is last years place at state?
Quote from Viper on February 20, 2022, 10:19 amQuote from Nacho on February 18, 2022, 6:07 pmWondering if anyone has a good understanding of the "TrackWrestling default Common criteria?" It is the 2nd criteria for region and state seeding so I am wondering how it works for wrestlers without a head-to-head matchup or those in a 3-way split. And then at what point does it move on to the 3rd criteria which is last years place at state?
So my understanding of this criteria (and anyone please correct me if I’m wrong) is opponents that you have not wrestled head to head, but have common opponents with. Hence the term “default common criteria” which has to mean wrestlers in common.
example: wrestler A and wrestler B have not wrestled this season but both have wrestled C & DA beat C 5-1 but lost to D by Pin.
B beat C 6-5 and beat D 9-7 In overtimeB would have the criteria to be above A because they both beat C, but B beat D and A did not.
It gets a little trickier if they both lost to D. Then you’d have to go to which (if either) placed at state last year, then on down the list
Quote from Nacho on February 18, 2022, 6:07 pmWondering if anyone has a good understanding of the "TrackWrestling default Common criteria?" It is the 2nd criteria for region and state seeding so I am wondering how it works for wrestlers without a head-to-head matchup or those in a 3-way split. And then at what point does it move on to the 3rd criteria which is last years place at state?
So my understanding of this criteria (and anyone please correct me if I’m wrong) is opponents that you have not wrestled head to head, but have common opponents with. Hence the term “default common criteria” which has to mean wrestlers in common.
example: wrestler A and wrestler B have not wrestled this season but both have wrestled C & D
A beat C 5-1 but lost to D by Pin.
B beat C 6-5 and beat D 9-7 In overtime
B would have the criteria to be above A because they both beat C, but B beat D and A did not.
It gets a little trickier if they both lost to D. Then you’d have to go to which (if either) placed at state last year, then on down the list
Quote from DSwartos on February 20, 2022, 9:14 pmWe seem to tinker with commons every year, at least since I've been here. We still don't have a system everyone likes and likely never will. It tends to depend on if it benefits your wrestler in that situation or not.
The Track Wrestling default Common Criteria is this:
- If you have a winning record against a common opponent (1-0, 2-0, 3-1, etc.) it counts as a win.
- If you have a neutral record against a common opponent (1-1, 2-2, etc.) it is neutral
- If you have a losing record against a common opponent (1-2, 0-2, 2-3, etc.) it is a loss
In the past, if I was 1-0 against a common and you were 2-1 against a common, I'd win out. Now its neutral.
An example:
Wrestler A and Wrestler B have four common opponents (1,2,3, and 4)
Wrester A is 1-0 against Common 1, 2-1 against Common 2, 2-0 against Common 3, and 0-1 against Common 4. A's record is 3-1 (win, win, win, loss)
Wrestler B is 2-0 against Common 1, 1-0 against Common 2, 2-0 against Common 3, and 0-1 against Common 4. B's record is 3-1 (win, win, win, loss)
In the Track Default commons Criteria, A and B are tied on commons.
In the old criteria, B would have had A on commons 1 to 0 because the 1-0 would have beat out the 2-1 on Common 2.
I don't know which way is best, but the official handbook position for this year is Track Wrestling default Common Criteria.
We seem to tinker with commons every year, at least since I've been here. We still don't have a system everyone likes and likely never will. It tends to depend on if it benefits your wrestler in that situation or not.
The Track Wrestling default Common Criteria is this:
- If you have a winning record against a common opponent (1-0, 2-0, 3-1, etc.) it counts as a win.
- If you have a neutral record against a common opponent (1-1, 2-2, etc.) it is neutral
- If you have a losing record against a common opponent (1-2, 0-2, 2-3, etc.) it is a loss
In the past, if I was 1-0 against a common and you were 2-1 against a common, I'd win out. Now its neutral.
An example:
Wrestler A and Wrestler B have four common opponents (1,2,3, and 4)
Wrester A is 1-0 against Common 1, 2-1 against Common 2, 2-0 against Common 3, and 0-1 against Common 4. A's record is 3-1 (win, win, win, loss)
Wrestler B is 2-0 against Common 1, 1-0 against Common 2, 2-0 against Common 3, and 0-1 against Common 4. B's record is 3-1 (win, win, win, loss)
In the Track Default commons Criteria, A and B are tied on commons.
In the old criteria, B would have had A on commons 1 to 0 because the 1-0 would have beat out the 2-1 on Common 2.
I don't know which way is best, but the official handbook position for this year is Track Wrestling default Common Criteria.
Quote from Nacho on February 20, 2022, 11:19 pmThank you both for the explanations! The main thing I’m still not understanding is how the seed points are added up. My previous understanding was that it had something to do with the amount of wins a wrestler has vs. the rest of the kids in their state bracket. However, I tried to tally a few up and could never match the seed points to the amount of those wins, even after trying to add points for situations when A beats B, B beats C, giving A another point. This may be way off though, I’m not sure. Anyone know?
Thank you both for the explanations! The main thing I’m still not understanding is how the seed points are added up. My previous understanding was that it had something to do with the amount of wins a wrestler has vs. the rest of the kids in their state bracket. However, I tried to tally a few up and could never match the seed points to the amount of those wins, even after trying to add points for situations when A beats B, B beats C, giving A another point. This may be way off though, I’m not sure. Anyone know?
Quote from CoachRingst on February 21, 2022, 3:56 pmBring back the draw, or at least a combination of seeding region champs and draw as it used to be. The trackwrestling generated seeding has complicated our sport instead of what people thought was going to make it simpler. Computer sense has replaced common sense and competition.
Bring back the draw, or at least a combination of seeding region champs and draw as it used to be. The trackwrestling generated seeding has complicated our sport instead of what people thought was going to make it simpler. Computer sense has replaced common sense and competition.
Quote from DSwartos on February 21, 2022, 4:47 pmQuote from Nacho on February 20, 2022, 11:19 pmThank you both for the explanations! The main thing I’m still not understanding is how the seed points are added up. My previous understanding was that it had something to do with the amount of wins a wrestler has vs. the rest of the kids in their state bracket. However, I tried to tally a few up and could never match the seed points to the amount of those wins, even after trying to add points for situations when A beats B, B beats C, giving A another point. This may be way off though, I’m not sure. Anyone know?
So the way we do it in Regions and State is that you first compare each wrestler against every other wrestler in the bracket. In State, that means you can have up to 15 seed points if you have criteria over every other wrestler. Essentially, you take Wrestler A and Wrestler B and compare them via the criteria (Head to Head, Commons, Region Place, State Place Last Year, State Place at Same Weight Last Year, Winning Percentage, Coin Flip). If Wrestler A has Head to Head over Wrestler B, Wrestler A gets one seed point. Then it compares Wrestler A with Wrestler C, and so on Comparing Wrestler A with everyone through Wrestler P. Once Wrestler A has been compared to all other wrestlers in the bracket, the number of wrestlers they have criteria over is their seed points. If I have criteria over everyone in the bracket, I have 15 seed points and I'm the #1 seed. If I only have criteria Once everyone has their seed points, then you go back and compare the wrestlers who have the same number of seed points against each other using the same criteria. Example- Wrestler F and Wrestler M both have 9 seed points and are tied for the 7th seed. You'd compare them to each other and whichever one has criteria over the other gets the 7 and the other gets the 8. We do that at the office the Saturday night (into Sunday morning) after Regions and send out the pre-seeds to a representative from each region. We then have a meeting on Sunday to walk through the pre-seeds and address any questions or challenges that coaches may have. The most common question I'll get is- my wrester is the 6 seed with 10 seed points, but they have a head to head over the 4 seed who has 12 seed points. Well, that may be, but the person at the 4 seed has criteria over 12 other wrestlers and you have criteria over 9 other wrestlers so their resume against the field as a whole is better, despite you beating them once. If two wrestlers are right next to each other and are separated by one seed point (example- the 4 seed with 12 points and the 5 seed with 11 seed points), we allow a challenge there and if #5 has criteria over #4, we swap them out on Sunday and flip the 4 and 5 seeds.
It is a complicated process for sure, but I truly believe the only real way to compare 16 wrestlers from all over the state against each other when there aren't always head to head matchups or commons. People often wish we could go back to the days of everyone around a table arguing about seeds and hashing it out, but often times seeds were settled that way based on which coach was loudest and most persistent. This is the most objective way to go about it in my opinion. It looks at results without bias and puts wrestlers where they should be based on those results. I'd guess that it is correct 95%+ of the time. Sometimes you get some weird results but when you go back and run it and look at the data, it is usually accurate based on our criteria.
Quote from Nacho on February 20, 2022, 11:19 pmThank you both for the explanations! The main thing I’m still not understanding is how the seed points are added up. My previous understanding was that it had something to do with the amount of wins a wrestler has vs. the rest of the kids in their state bracket. However, I tried to tally a few up and could never match the seed points to the amount of those wins, even after trying to add points for situations when A beats B, B beats C, giving A another point. This may be way off though, I’m not sure. Anyone know?
So the way we do it in Regions and State is that you first compare each wrestler against every other wrestler in the bracket. In State, that means you can have up to 15 seed points if you have criteria over every other wrestler. Essentially, you take Wrestler A and Wrestler B and compare them via the criteria (Head to Head, Commons, Region Place, State Place Last Year, State Place at Same Weight Last Year, Winning Percentage, Coin Flip). If Wrestler A has Head to Head over Wrestler B, Wrestler A gets one seed point. Then it compares Wrestler A with Wrestler C, and so on Comparing Wrestler A with everyone through Wrestler P. Once Wrestler A has been compared to all other wrestlers in the bracket, the number of wrestlers they have criteria over is their seed points. If I have criteria over everyone in the bracket, I have 15 seed points and I'm the #1 seed. If I only have criteria Once everyone has their seed points, then you go back and compare the wrestlers who have the same number of seed points against each other using the same criteria. Example- Wrestler F and Wrestler M both have 9 seed points and are tied for the 7th seed. You'd compare them to each other and whichever one has criteria over the other gets the 7 and the other gets the 8. We do that at the office the Saturday night (into Sunday morning) after Regions and send out the pre-seeds to a representative from each region. We then have a meeting on Sunday to walk through the pre-seeds and address any questions or challenges that coaches may have. The most common question I'll get is- my wrester is the 6 seed with 10 seed points, but they have a head to head over the 4 seed who has 12 seed points. Well, that may be, but the person at the 4 seed has criteria over 12 other wrestlers and you have criteria over 9 other wrestlers so their resume against the field as a whole is better, despite you beating them once. If two wrestlers are right next to each other and are separated by one seed point (example- the 4 seed with 12 points and the 5 seed with 11 seed points), we allow a challenge there and if #5 has criteria over #4, we swap them out on Sunday and flip the 4 and 5 seeds.
It is a complicated process for sure, but I truly believe the only real way to compare 16 wrestlers from all over the state against each other when there aren't always head to head matchups or commons. People often wish we could go back to the days of everyone around a table arguing about seeds and hashing it out, but often times seeds were settled that way based on which coach was loudest and most persistent. This is the most objective way to go about it in my opinion. It looks at results without bias and puts wrestlers where they should be based on those results. I'd guess that it is correct 95%+ of the time. Sometimes you get some weird results but when you go back and run it and look at the data, it is usually accurate based on our criteria.
Quote from Nacho on February 21, 2022, 5:04 pmThank you Dan! Very much appreciated! Last question. In regards to calculating the seed points for each wrestler, what are all of the things used to gain a criteria/seed point over other wrestlers? I understand that if A beats B and B beats C then A has criteria over both - A has 2 seed points, B has 1 seed point and C has 0. But I'm assuming there is other ways to earn seed points, correct? One example would be if C beats D then A, B, and C would all get a seed point I'm assuming, but aside from beating someone or someone you've beaten, beating someone, what are the other ways to earn seed points, if any?
Thank you Dan! Very much appreciated! Last question. In regards to calculating the seed points for each wrestler, what are all of the things used to gain a criteria/seed point over other wrestlers? I understand that if A beats B and B beats C then A has criteria over both - A has 2 seed points, B has 1 seed point and C has 0. But I'm assuming there is other ways to earn seed points, correct? One example would be if C beats D then A, B, and C would all get a seed point I'm assuming, but aside from beating someone or someone you've beaten, beating someone, what are the other ways to earn seed points, if any?
Quote from DSwartos on February 21, 2022, 6:06 pmSeed points are earned by comparing one wrestler against another. That process starts with head to head. If there is no head to head, then you move to common opponents and you use the system I discussed above. If there are no common opponents or if you are tied on common opponents, then you move to region place, if region place is tied you move to state place in 2021, if you both got the same place you move to state place at same weight in 2021, if neither placed and/or neither placed at the same weight, you move to winning percentage, if after all that every single thing is equal, its a coin flip.
What I think you're asking is how do we do it when you are comparing more than two wrestlers that are tied with the same amount of seed points. Example- three wrestlers all have 9 seed points and you need to see which one is on top. You go through the same process but its more complicated. For head to head, they all have to have wrestled each other. If they haven't all wrestled each other or if they have all wrestled each other and they've all beaten each other, then you move to common opponents, in which case you look for opponents that all 3 or 4 or however many you are comparing have all wrestled. Then you go to region place, and state place, and so on until you have isolated one wrestler (either in the negative or the positive- example: there's a common opponent that one wrestler has beaten and the other two have lost to). Once you've isolated one, that wrestler gets the seed and you start back over at head to head with the remaining wrestlers who are left. In a three way tie, once you've determined the top person, you bring the other two back in and compare those two to each other. In a four way tie, you determine the top person and then you bring the remaining three together and determine the top person and then you compare the remaining two.
Seed points are earned by comparing one wrestler against another. That process starts with head to head. If there is no head to head, then you move to common opponents and you use the system I discussed above. If there are no common opponents or if you are tied on common opponents, then you move to region place, if region place is tied you move to state place in 2021, if you both got the same place you move to state place at same weight in 2021, if neither placed and/or neither placed at the same weight, you move to winning percentage, if after all that every single thing is equal, its a coin flip.
What I think you're asking is how do we do it when you are comparing more than two wrestlers that are tied with the same amount of seed points. Example- three wrestlers all have 9 seed points and you need to see which one is on top. You go through the same process but its more complicated. For head to head, they all have to have wrestled each other. If they haven't all wrestled each other or if they have all wrestled each other and they've all beaten each other, then you move to common opponents, in which case you look for opponents that all 3 or 4 or however many you are comparing have all wrestled. Then you go to region place, and state place, and so on until you have isolated one wrestler (either in the negative or the positive- example: there's a common opponent that one wrestler has beaten and the other two have lost to). Once you've isolated one, that wrestler gets the seed and you start back over at head to head with the remaining wrestlers who are left. In a three way tie, once you've determined the top person, you bring the other two back in and compare those two to each other. In a four way tie, you determine the top person and then you bring the remaining three together and determine the top person and then you compare the remaining two.
Quote from Nacho on February 21, 2022, 6:27 pmThank you Dan! Appreciate you taking time to come on here and tell us how it works!
Thank you Dan! Appreciate you taking time to come on here and tell us how it works!
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