Quote from Nacho on March 3, 2022, 11:42 am

Most of the validity of changing to 12 weight classes revolves around it being better for duals. Like anyone, I love duals and the state dual tournament, but why would we change the weight classes in an attempt to make duals potentially slightly better. Even at the highest level, wrestling revolves around individual tournaments/performance and that's where our heads should be. This dual stuff should not influence the decision to change the number of weight classes because at the end of the day, are they really that big of a deal? No. Sure it's fun but most people don't really care all that much. The team title at the individual tournament is just as significant if not more. Using the Bs as an example, why would you take individual spots away from good wrestlers in programs that have close to full lineups (Winner, Canton, KWLPG)? It doesn't make any sense. Kids who have wrestled their entire lives get to high school in programs like these and can't wrestle in the individual state tournament because we wanted to make duals slightly more competitive!? Ludicrous.

Quote from WellArmed on March 3, 2022, 7:54 pm

Quote from interesting on March 3, 2022, 11:18 am

 

Quote from WellArmed on March 3, 2022, 9:52 am

Quote from interesting on March 2, 2022, 12:33 am

• Just spitballing…

Maybe only award team points for the matches that are wrestled in a dual? (Hell you could increase the number of weights and only score team points where there are matches)

Or mandate all duals have 14 matches, and if schools have open weights coaches will pair other weights until there are 14 matches to fill the open spots, starting with closest weights to open where both have other wrestlers?

Or allow kids to wrestle more than one match in a dual?

All of these would result in teams holding back wrestlers to win the dual. Which would be LESS participation.  But you also said that more participation is where we should be aiming.  ????

Ex 1: If your kid at 113 is horrible, you'd just say you don't have a 113 and then the match wouldn't count vs total dual score.  If a kid a stud, coaches would forfeit to him.  Right, wrong or other, coaches would do it. They are trying to win the dual -- Especially if regular season duals are used to dictate seeding at the state dual tournament.
Ex 2: if you let kids wrestle more than once, teams would have their studs wrestle more than once, and by having one kid wrestle twice, you're taking another kid out of the lineup---even if you have another kid.  Remember, coaches are trying to win duals.  So they'd pull a lesser kid if they could use their stud twice. This is yet another instance of making LESS participation.

 

 

Quote from interesting on March 2, 2022, 12:33 am

And no offense but teams with less than 11 probably shouldn’t be in duals with full teams in the first place.

So here, you'd be eliminating participation.  You talked about participation being important, now you're saying those teams shouldn't dual?  Interesting.

 

 

Quote from interesting on March 2, 2022, 12:33 am

It’s just logical that less opportunities leads to less participation. Less athletes also = less scholarship opportunities, and fewer life lessons

So 21 weight classes would obviously be better in your eyes, as it offers more participation, more life lessons, more state champions, etc.... correct?

 

 

I'm not saying 12 is the cut and dry answer. I am saying there are a lot  of positives to it.

Secondly,  we'd all love it we COULD have more weight classes---IF we could all fill them.  We can't. Obviously many are having troubles filling 14, let alone more than 14.

Which, is why the powers that be in the NFHS.... decided the options OTHER than the current 14 are both LESS than the current 14.  Notice they didn't add 15 or 16 as options.    Lowering the number of weight classes isn't being suggested out of "want".  Unfortunately, It's out of necessity.   It's where we are as a sport.

 

Yes much of my opinion and the ideas I threw out rely on coaches having the integrity to do the right thing, and I believe nearly all do. Much of your rebuttal relies on coaches taking whatever path they can to win at all costs.  If that is where we are then god help us all.

Not dueling wasn’t intended to mean not wrestling at all, just different formats or opportunities. You took that out of context to try and make your point.

FYI I have yet to see any evidence of those options being a “necessity”.   Is there some empirical evidence available to support the argument for less weights that I am not aware of? Happy to put in the work to read any research to inform my opinions.

I previously served a youth program that grew from 60 wrestlers to 130 and ran many youth tournaments with nearly 500 kids that produced 15k in profits for the club every year for many years, so I have documented proof that growing the sport is possible.

You are certainly entitled to your opinion, I am just not going to agree with your positions, especially when they have inherent bias. I have different opinions and that is ok too.

….oh ya and I did say I was just spitballing, which was an attempt to brainstorm and gather positive ideas that may help grow the sport, you seem to be a tad bit defensive in your support of your position, like when your trying to “tell me how it is”. Which tells me either you think you are an authority on the subject, or that somehow I will magically change my opinion because of your tone.

I wasn’t attacking your opinion, if you are right, and I am wrong, then I will gladly admit it when it comes time.

 

 

I agree....

There is no right or wrong...just ideas, thoughts, and spitballing.   And it's okay for two people to disagree.

I will say that coaches do what's necessary to win duals.  They should.   Just like every sport, you should be trying to win without cheating.

I'm in ND Class A.  We use duals to qualify and seed for the state dual tourney. So we try to win our regular season duals.

We may start doing what SD does to qualify for duals.  And even when we do that, we will try to win duals.

Quote from interesting on March 3, 2022, 10:40 pm

Quote from WellArmed on March 3, 2022, 7:54 pm

Quote from interesting on March 3, 2022, 11:18 am

 

Quote from WellArmed on March 3, 2022, 9:52 am

Quote from interesting on March 2, 2022, 12:33 am

• Just spitballing…

Maybe only award team points for the matches that are wrestled in a dual? (Hell you could increase the number of weights and only score team points where there are matches)

Or mandate all duals have 14 matches, and if schools have open weights coaches will pair other weights until there are 14 matches to fill the open spots, starting with closest weights to open where both have other wrestlers?

Or allow kids to wrestle more than one match in a dual?

All of these would result in teams holding back wrestlers to win the dual. Which would be LESS participation.  But you also said that more participation is where we should be aiming.  ????

Ex 1: If your kid at 113 is horrible, you'd just say you don't have a 113 and then the match wouldn't count vs total dual score.  If a kid a stud, coaches would forfeit to him.  Right, wrong or other, coaches would do it. They are trying to win the dual -- Especially if regular season duals are used to dictate seeding at the state dual tournament.
Ex 2: if you let kids wrestle more than once, teams would have their studs wrestle more than once, and by having one kid wrestle twice, you're taking another kid out of the lineup---even if you have another kid.  Remember, coaches are trying to win duals.  So they'd pull a lesser kid if they could use their stud twice. This is yet another instance of making LESS participation.

 

 

Quote from interesting on March 2, 2022, 12:33 am

And no offense but teams with less than 11 probably shouldn’t be in duals with full teams in the first place.

So here, you'd be eliminating participation.  You talked about participation being important, now you're saying those teams shouldn't dual?  Interesting.

 

 

Quote from interesting on March 2, 2022, 12:33 am

It’s just logical that less opportunities leads to less participation. Less athletes also = less scholarship opportunities, and fewer life lessons

So 21 weight classes would obviously be better in your eyes, as it offers more participation, more life lessons, more state champions, etc.... correct?

 

 

I'm not saying 12 is the cut and dry answer. I am saying there are a lot  of positives to it.

Secondly,  we'd all love it we COULD have more weight classes---IF we could all fill them.  We can't. Obviously many are having troubles filling 14, let alone more than 14.

Which, is why the powers that be in the NFHS.... decided the options OTHER than the current 14 are both LESS than the current 14.  Notice they didn't add 15 or 16 as options.    Lowering the number of weight classes isn't being suggested out of "want".  Unfortunately, It's out of necessity.   It's where we are as a sport.

 

Yes much of my opinion and the ideas I threw out rely on coaches having the integrity to do the right thing, and I believe nearly all do. Much of your rebuttal relies on coaches taking whatever path they can to win at all costs.  If that is where we are then god help us all.

Not dueling wasn’t intended to mean not wrestling at all, just different formats or opportunities. You took that out of context to try and make your point.

FYI I have yet to see any evidence of those options being a “necessity”.   Is there some empirical evidence available to support the argument for less weights that I am not aware of? Happy to put in the work to read any research to inform my opinions.

I previously served a youth program that grew from 60 wrestlers to 130 and ran many youth tournaments with nearly 500 kids that produced 15k in profits for the club every year for many years, so I have documented proof that growing the sport is possible.

You are certainly entitled to your opinion, I am just not going to agree with your positions, especially when they have inherent bias. I have different opinions and that is ok too.

….oh ya and I did say I was just spitballing, which was an attempt to brainstorm and gather positive ideas that may help grow the sport, you seem to be a tad bit defensive in your support of your position, like when your trying to “tell me how it is”. Which tells me either you think you are an authority on the subject, or that somehow I will magically change my opinion because of your tone.

I wasn’t attacking your opinion, if you are right, and I am wrong, then I will gladly admit it when it comes time.

 

 

I agree....

There is no right or wrong...just ideas, thoughts, and spitballing.   And it's okay for two people to disagree.

I will say that coaches do what's necessary to win duals.  They should.   Just like every sport, you should be trying to win without cheating.

I'm in ND Class A.  We use duals to qualify and seed for the state dual tourney. So we try to win our regular season duals.

We may start doing what SD does to qualify for duals.  And even when we do that, we will try to win duals.

When do you guys run your state dual tourney?  It’s not like ours where it’s the same as individual state, is it?

I have talked to 500 kids in the last two years and 99.9% hate it, and it more about the bad timing than the actual event.

The people running it doing their best to be able to staff and run it with the captive  audience of individual state, but to the kids they seem to feel like it’s the Ron’s appliance, Dicks vacuums, blooming onion college bowl game that hardly anyone wants to play in, and the only ones watching are mom, dad, grandpa, grandma, and oh ya that creepy guy looking up kids aau results while asking for their address.

Frankly I get where the kids are coming from, it’s too much for one weekend and it’s not just about the number of matches it’s the emotional toll, 3 days of making weight, injuries, and the fact that hardly any teams are at full strength when it happens.  Ours got out of hand this year, because it was too much to put on them when they don’t really want it….….…..it was like forced family “fun”, yes there are moments when everyone is enjoying it, but that doesn’t mean the car ride there wasn’t pure hell.

 

Quote from Clearly on March 4, 2022, 8:56 am

Quote from Viper on March 1, 2022, 9:45 pm

I also think that girls in general being smaller than boys should probably shift lower and start at like 93-95lbs for their opening weight instead of 106

 

There are a lot of girls who aren't wrestling because they simply don't weigh enough.     As a girl wrestling mom I 100% believe we need to add a lower class.  We had way to many girls who either missed out or loaded the 106 class in the 90's.       Lets help grow this amazing sport for males and females,  14 weight classes across The board

 

Quote from WellArmed on March 14, 2022, 8:47 pm

Quote from interesting on March 3, 2022, 10:40 pm

Quote from WellArmed on March 3, 2022, 7:54 pm

Quote from interesting on March 3, 2022, 11:18 am

 

Quote from WellArmed on March 3, 2022, 9:52 am

Quote from interesting on March 2, 2022, 12:33 am

• Just spitballing…

Maybe only award team points for the matches that are wrestled in a dual? (Hell you could increase the number of weights and only score team points where there are matches)

Or mandate all duals have 14 matches, and if schools have open weights coaches will pair other weights until there are 14 matches to fill the open spots, starting with closest weights to open where both have other wrestlers?

Or allow kids to wrestle more than one match in a dual?

All of these would result in teams holding back wrestlers to win the dual. Which would be LESS participation.  But you also said that more participation is where we should be aiming.  ????

Ex 1: If your kid at 113 is horrible, you'd just say you don't have a 113 and then the match wouldn't count vs total dual score.  If a kid a stud, coaches would forfeit to him.  Right, wrong or other, coaches would do it. They are trying to win the dual -- Especially if regular season duals are used to dictate seeding at the state dual tournament.
Ex 2: if you let kids wrestle more than once, teams would have their studs wrestle more than once, and by having one kid wrestle twice, you're taking another kid out of the lineup---even if you have another kid.  Remember, coaches are trying to win duals.  So they'd pull a lesser kid if they could use their stud twice. This is yet another instance of making LESS participation.

 

 

Quote from interesting on March 2, 2022, 12:33 am

And no offense but teams with less than 11 probably shouldn’t be in duals with full teams in the first place.

So here, you'd be eliminating participation.  You talked about participation being important, now you're saying those teams shouldn't dual?  Interesting.

 

 

Quote from interesting on March 2, 2022, 12:33 am

It’s just logical that less opportunities leads to less participation. Less athletes also = less scholarship opportunities, and fewer life lessons

So 21 weight classes would obviously be better in your eyes, as it offers more participation, more life lessons, more state champions, etc.... correct?

 

 

I'm not saying 12 is the cut and dry answer. I am saying there are a lot  of positives to it.

Secondly,  we'd all love it we COULD have more weight classes---IF we could all fill them.  We can't. Obviously many are having troubles filling 14, let alone more than 14.

Which, is why the powers that be in the NFHS.... decided the options OTHER than the current 14 are both LESS than the current 14.  Notice they didn't add 15 or 16 as options.    Lowering the number of weight classes isn't being suggested out of "want".  Unfortunately, It's out of necessity.   It's where we are as a sport.

 

Yes much of my opinion and the ideas I threw out rely on coaches having the integrity to do the right thing, and I believe nearly all do. Much of your rebuttal relies on coaches taking whatever path they can to win at all costs.  If that is where we are then god help us all.

Not dueling wasn’t intended to mean not wrestling at all, just different formats or opportunities. You took that out of context to try and make your point.

FYI I have yet to see any evidence of those options being a “necessity”.   Is there some empirical evidence available to support the argument for less weights that I am not aware of? Happy to put in the work to read any research to inform my opinions.

I previously served a youth program that grew from 60 wrestlers to 130 and ran many youth tournaments with nearly 500 kids that produced 15k in profits for the club every year for many years, so I have documented proof that growing the sport is possible.

You are certainly entitled to your opinion, I am just not going to agree with your positions, especially when they have inherent bias. I have different opinions and that is ok too.

….oh ya and I did say I was just spitballing, which was an attempt to brainstorm and gather positive ideas that may help grow the sport, you seem to be a tad bit defensive in your support of your position, like when your trying to “tell me how it is”. Which tells me either you think you are an authority on the subject, or that somehow I will magically change my opinion because of your tone.

I wasn’t attacking your opinion, if you are right, and I am wrong, then I will gladly admit it when it comes time.

 

 

I agree....

There is no right or wrong...just ideas, thoughts, and spitballing.   And it's okay for two people to disagree.

I will say that coaches do what's necessary to win duals.  They should.   Just like every sport, you should be trying to win without cheating.

I'm in ND Class A.  We use duals to qualify and seed for the state dual tourney. So we try to win our regular season duals.

We may start doing what SD does to qualify for duals.  And even when we do that, we will try to win duals.

When do you guys run your state dual tourney?  It’s not like ours where it’s the same as individual state, is it?

I have talked to 500 kids in the last two years and 99.9% hate it, and it more about the bad timing than the actual event.

The people running it doing their best to be able to staff and run it with the captive  audience of individual state, but to the kids they seem to feel like it’s the Ron’s appliance, Dicks vacuums, blooming onion college bowl game that hardly anyone wants to play in, and the only ones watching are mom, dad, grandpa, grandma, and oh ya that creepy guy looking up kids aau results while asking for their address.

Frankly I get where the kids are coming from, it’s too much for one weekend and it’s not just about the number of matches it’s the emotional toll, 3 days of making weight, injuries, and the fact that hardly any teams are at full strength when it happens.  Ours got out of hand this year, because it was too much to put on them when they don’t really want it….….…..it was like forced family “fun”, yes there are moments when everyone is enjoying it, but that doesn’t mean the car ride there wasn’t pure hell.

 

As of the past 2 years, we do our individual tournament on Thursday and Friday and Duals on Saturday.   Up til then, they were intertwined.

Coaches seem to prefer the way it is now (duals by themselves on last day)

And I would agree.  Kids seem to not like the State Duals.  Not sure on reason. A lot of it could the first 2 days...most kids wake up at 6am, get to event center (Fargodome) at 7am and are there til 8pm.  Then have to get to hotel, team meeting, and by the time they get to bed.... they are drained from long days, cutting (some) and not enough sleep.  By day 3, they are spent.

Quote from seas78 on March 31, 2022, 2:17 pm

I agree, odd # of weight classes makes tie breakers easier. No one wants to tally up first takedowns. 🙂 I say go to 15! Here are the options I saw proposed... take a look at the 14 class option. 106, 113, 126... 113 & then 126 seems insane to me. How can we even consider that? We have a 13 pound gap there with our little guys when others classes are 6 pounds apart?? I'd say add 120 back in there & make it 15 classes.

Weight Classes for Boys that we will need to decide on:
12 Classes – 108, 116, 124, 131, 138, 145, 152, 160, 170, 190, 215 & 285
13 Classes – 107, 114, 121, 127, 133, 139, 145, 152, 160, 172, 189, 215 & 285
14 Classes – 106, 113, 126, 132, 138, 144, 150, 157, 165, 175, 190, 215 & 285

Quote from Fat125 on March 31, 2022, 3:53 pm

There is a 120.  You just omitted it.  If you count the weights, in your 14 weight class option, there are only 13 weights.

Quote from trig72 on April 5, 2022, 11:37 am

IMO

Eliminate MS wrestling in SDHS state.

We now have an established MS state.

Not sure what it fixes but just my one cent.