Night of Conflict!
Quote from Skeeter on September 25, 2022, 3:49 pmSad day for SD Wrestling, keeping two of our very own wrestlers from attending. What great opportunity this could of been! Just SAD!
Sad day for SD Wrestling, keeping two of our very own wrestlers from attending. What great opportunity this could of been! Just SAD!
Quote from TigerPride on September 25, 2022, 10:00 pmWhat is this post about?
What is this post about?
Quote from WrestleMma185 on September 26, 2022, 7:26 amDo to a rule put in place by the state, two highly ranked SD were barred from competing in an pre-season “all-star” dual. Strange rule that to me seems odd considering there are tournaments like preseason nationals and super 32 we have kids attend.
anyone provide any background as to why this rule is in place? I just don’t see a reason coaches would say “no” to a kid seeking an opportunity like this.
Do to a rule put in place by the state, two highly ranked SD were barred from competing in an pre-season “all-star” dual. Strange rule that to me seems odd considering there are tournaments like preseason nationals and super 32 we have kids attend.
anyone provide any background as to why this rule is in place? I just don’t see a reason coaches would say “no” to a kid seeking an opportunity like this.
Quote from chalk on September 27, 2022, 12:22 pmThis has been done before, just not really advertised.
IMO. Participating and drawing attention to it (social media) or advertising you are would likely get reported or seen (social media). If this was labeled a tournament or league it might be different. I think it has to do with the In/Out of season rules. Coaches can't but if the event was titled something else, it might fly. With enough notice, you may be able to apply for an exemption as others have done with other sports. Normally these are "National" events not regional or smaller like the one in Iowa.
This is something that is hard to police for the SDHSAA and relies on reported events (from people/coaches/rivals) and subsequent follow up by the SDHSAA or self reporting of schools. It's kid of messy because you have to look at the number of kids and whether the people directing something are coaches or are coaching or if it's just some well qualified dad or supporter of the program.
There is some gray area in here and should be looked at again with all the events for many different sports/activities. There is some good stuff in there, but risking 25% of your season if participated in and then someone reported it would stink.
This is an animal once they dive into would take some time and input and would be tough to get it 100% right, since they are protecting the schools and rightly so, but affects the select number of kids that "could" or "would" get invited or can afford to go somewhere to participate.
There is some support out there to change some of the coaching rules, but is that a good idea since it's kind of worked to the best of their knowledge. There are a few schools that get popped each year for things, but it's not often it's an individual (or that they disclose), it's more like a team. But if you win a championship with an ineligible player(s) for example, they are not vacating any state titles that I have seen. It's a small fine, a letter, and probation.
Check this out and it might help understand it. Page 2 is a chart that simplifies it a little. https://www.sdhsaa.com/Handbook/ATH-OutOfSeasonRules.pdf
This has been done before, just not really advertised.
IMO. Participating and drawing attention to it (social media) or advertising you are would likely get reported or seen (social media). If this was labeled a tournament or league it might be different. I think it has to do with the In/Out of season rules. Coaches can't but if the event was titled something else, it might fly. With enough notice, you may be able to apply for an exemption as others have done with other sports. Normally these are "National" events not regional or smaller like the one in Iowa.
This is something that is hard to police for the SDHSAA and relies on reported events (from people/coaches/rivals) and subsequent follow up by the SDHSAA or self reporting of schools. It's kid of messy because you have to look at the number of kids and whether the people directing something are coaches or are coaching or if it's just some well qualified dad or supporter of the program.
There is some gray area in here and should be looked at again with all the events for many different sports/activities. There is some good stuff in there, but risking 25% of your season if participated in and then someone reported it would stink.
This is an animal once they dive into would take some time and input and would be tough to get it 100% right, since they are protecting the schools and rightly so, but affects the select number of kids that "could" or "would" get invited or can afford to go somewhere to participate.
There is some support out there to change some of the coaching rules, but is that a good idea since it's kind of worked to the best of their knowledge. There are a few schools that get popped each year for things, but it's not often it's an individual (or that they disclose), it's more like a team. But if you win a championship with an ineligible player(s) for example, they are not vacating any state titles that I have seen. It's a small fine, a letter, and probation.
Check this out and it might help understand it. Page 2 is a chart that simplifies it a little. https://www.sdhsaa.com/Handbook/ATH-OutOfSeasonRules.pdf
Quote from WrestleMma185 on October 7, 2022, 4:24 pmAlthough this is a bummer, there are plenty of other opportunities outside of the season kids can go to for recognition. Fargo, Folkstyle nationals, northern plains. I don’t think we have sent a junior/cadet duals team the last couple years (or at least last year). Gotta have more interest from the state as a whole/more kids seeking to wrestle outside of season. The ones that do train outside of the season, outside of some, rarely leave the state.
Although this is a bummer, there are plenty of other opportunities outside of the season kids can go to for recognition. Fargo, Folkstyle nationals, northern plains. I don’t think we have sent a junior/cadet duals team the last couple years (or at least last year). Gotta have more interest from the state as a whole/more kids seeking to wrestle outside of season. The ones that do train outside of the season, outside of some, rarely leave the state.
Quote from WrestleMma185 on October 7, 2022, 10:40 pmI do think something like this could be pretty cool. Now, 40 from each state or like 20v20? Also, wonder if this is something that could be arranged around the time of a youth state tourney (not sure when ND does theirs). Give the kids a brief rest right after state (not certain on ND state dates either) and about 3 weeks to train for 1 match? Doesn’t sound too unreasonable.
I do think something like this could be pretty cool. Now, 40 from each state or like 20v20? Also, wonder if this is something that could be arranged around the time of a youth state tourney (not sure when ND does theirs). Give the kids a brief rest right after state (not certain on ND state dates either) and about 3 weeks to train for 1 match? Doesn’t sound too unreasonable.
Quote from Skeeter on October 8, 2022, 6:41 amQuote from Skeeter on October 7, 2022, 9:35 pmThoughts!? This is a All Star volleyball event similar to night of conflict….
Quote from Skeeter on October 7, 2022, 9:35 pmThoughts!? This is a All Star volleyball event similar to night of conflict….
Quote from WrestleMma185 on October 9, 2022, 8:30 amNot trying to pry or start argument, but two things:
1. How were we able to send a team of mostly SD kids to Wisconsin for AWA duals, going on right now? Happens after Night of Conflict, more kids involved, only difference… no mention of the word “All-Star” cause I assuming LOG was “invited” to participate.
2. now bad timing I suppose with many playing football or another fall sport, but it’s the same kids on the mentioned dual team that are consistently going to out of state competition. Some other factors probably playing in here as well
Not trying to pry or start argument, but two things:
1. How were we able to send a team of mostly SD kids to Wisconsin for AWA duals, going on right now? Happens after Night of Conflict, more kids involved, only difference… no mention of the word “All-Star” cause I assuming LOG was “invited” to participate.
2. now bad timing I suppose with many playing football or another fall sport, but it’s the same kids on the mentioned dual team that are consistently going to out of state competition. Some other factors probably playing in here as well
Quote from chalk on October 9, 2022, 10:37 amWhen you say "we" you are talking about a club (not high school coaches) team just putting together a great mix of wrestlers to go and get some matches. For those kids it's great for that opportunity. I don't know if they were "invited" or just saw they were having duals and paid the entry and went, either way it does not matter. Don't know if those kids are participating in other activities right now or not. When it matters is when high school coaches are coaching in season (during the whole school year) with more than the # of high school athletes allowed. Key though, is LOG is not connected to the SDHSAA, they are not an affiliated HS team, neither are the coaches.
Going to duals or individual pre-season tournaments is fine, again high school coaches just can't be involved for the most part. If the number is over like 3 kids for wrestling from your school, I think or something like that, as all the sports are different. I would say if someone was invited to an "all-star" event during the school year, they could ask for permission from the SDHSAA, it may be allowed depending on the circumstances or they could risk any penalties. If it happened in the summer, probably no problem. The volleyball example above is club, and because it's in the summer, likely fine. There was going to be an SD HS all-star event in South Dakota last year or the year before after state wrestling in Mitchell but was cancelled. I don't know the specifics of why, you could ask the organizers, but could have been because it wasn't in the summer.
Regarding your second comment, yes LOG travels and goes out too many events, but that also isn't free either. Plus, yes many kids playing football, golf, working, just finishing fall baseball, soccer, attending open mats or training in their own way around the state. So, yes, many of those kids travel and it's because of the opportunities that are provided by LOG (coaching, off season training, facilities, etc.). LOG does a great job providing those. There are also SD kids that go down to AAU duals each year (in season) in Des Moines or other individual/dual tournaments in and out of season with the SDWCA, LOG, BH Wrestling Academy, 605 Grapplers, SDUSAW, or just dads putting a team together to go. All these groups provide great opportunities for kids to wrestle, meet new kids, and have fun. I have been lucky to have been a part of almost all of these groups with my kids and am thankful we were able to participate.
As much as we all would like to see our SD kids wrestling year-round and going out to various tournaments, some just don't want to, are in other activities, have different goals, can't afford to, are working, logistics, or whatever. Many west river kids do travel to Denver for events, Montana, Wyoming etc. and maybe it's just not seen or publicized like some of the events.
We are getting closer to the season, and it should be a great year.
When you say "we" you are talking about a club (not high school coaches) team just putting together a great mix of wrestlers to go and get some matches. For those kids it's great for that opportunity. I don't know if they were "invited" or just saw they were having duals and paid the entry and went, either way it does not matter. Don't know if those kids are participating in other activities right now or not. When it matters is when high school coaches are coaching in season (during the whole school year) with more than the # of high school athletes allowed. Key though, is LOG is not connected to the SDHSAA, they are not an affiliated HS team, neither are the coaches.
Going to duals or individual pre-season tournaments is fine, again high school coaches just can't be involved for the most part. If the number is over like 3 kids for wrestling from your school, I think or something like that, as all the sports are different. I would say if someone was invited to an "all-star" event during the school year, they could ask for permission from the SDHSAA, it may be allowed depending on the circumstances or they could risk any penalties. If it happened in the summer, probably no problem. The volleyball example above is club, and because it's in the summer, likely fine. There was going to be an SD HS all-star event in South Dakota last year or the year before after state wrestling in Mitchell but was cancelled. I don't know the specifics of why, you could ask the organizers, but could have been because it wasn't in the summer.
Regarding your second comment, yes LOG travels and goes out too many events, but that also isn't free either. Plus, yes many kids playing football, golf, working, just finishing fall baseball, soccer, attending open mats or training in their own way around the state. So, yes, many of those kids travel and it's because of the opportunities that are provided by LOG (coaching, off season training, facilities, etc.). LOG does a great job providing those. There are also SD kids that go down to AAU duals each year (in season) in Des Moines or other individual/dual tournaments in and out of season with the SDWCA, LOG, BH Wrestling Academy, 605 Grapplers, SDUSAW, or just dads putting a team together to go. All these groups provide great opportunities for kids to wrestle, meet new kids, and have fun. I have been lucky to have been a part of almost all of these groups with my kids and am thankful we were able to participate.
As much as we all would like to see our SD kids wrestling year-round and going out to various tournaments, some just don't want to, are in other activities, have different goals, can't afford to, are working, logistics, or whatever. Many west river kids do travel to Denver for events, Montana, Wyoming etc. and maybe it's just not seen or publicized like some of the events.
We are getting closer to the season, and it should be a great year.
Quote from MadInvite on October 10, 2022, 10:48 pmPer SDHSAA By-Laws:
c. Students and All-Star Events
i. Seniors who have exhausted their eligibility and completed their final season with the SDHSAA in a particular sport can participate in All-Star Games on an unlimited basis, with no regard to date(s) of the event, number of events or numbers of participants from a given school entity.
ii. All other student athletes who have not yet exhausted their eligibility in a particular sport may participate in all-star games during the summer time period only (June 1 through July 31), provided no more than the following number of students from one member school participate: basketball – 3, cheer – 5, cross country – 3, dance – 5, football – 7, golf – 3, gymnastics – 3, soccer – 7, tennis – 3, track & field – 3, volleyball – 4, and wrestling – 3.
Per SDHSAA By-Laws:
c. Students and All-Star Events
i. Seniors who have exhausted their eligibility and completed their final season with the SDHSAA in a particular sport can participate in All-Star Games on an unlimited basis, with no regard to date(s) of the event, number of events or numbers of participants from a given school entity.
ii. All other student athletes who have not yet exhausted their eligibility in a particular sport may participate in all-star games during the summer time period only (June 1 through July 31), provided no more than the following number of students from one member school participate: basketball – 3, cheer – 5, cross country – 3, dance – 5, football – 7, golf – 3, gymnastics – 3, soccer – 7, tennis – 3, track & field – 3, volleyball – 4, and wrestling – 3.
Quote from MadInvite on October 10, 2022, 10:56 pmFurther out of season rules - Where tournaments are allowed and All-Star events are not
e. Students and Leagues/Games/Tournaments:
i. Student Athletes may participate in Non-SDHSAA Leagues, Games or Tournaments on an unlimited basis, provided that the events are not taking place during the specified SDHSAA Sport Season.
f. Coaches and Leagues/Games/Tournaments:
i. Coaches may coach teams involved in out-of-season leagues, games or tournaments during the Summer Time Period only. This coaching will count toward the “Four Contact Rule” as stated later in this document.
IX. Club Teams
a. A Club Team is defined as a team that plays a schedule of multiple events with one another, with a minimum of three events. Members for this team are chosen by invitation or selected outright by some predetermined process.
b. Students and Club Teams
i. Students may participate on club teams on an unlimited basis outside of that sport’s given season
ii. During a specific SDHSAA Sport Season, students may not participate on any level with a club team. This participation includes a restriction on any/all club team games, practices, try-outs or other like activities.
c. Coaches and Club Teams (number of athletes below pertain to the number of athletes participating in the club sport in which the club team is participating. )
i. Coaches may coach a club team from the end of their individual sport season through July 31st given that the roster of that the club team being coached contains no more than the following number of students from any member school: basketball – 3, cheer – 5, cross country – 3, dance – 5, football – 7, golf – 3, gymnastics – 3, soccer – 7, softball -7, tennis – 3, track & field – 3, volleyball – 4, and wrestling – 3.
ii. Any team that has more than that given number of athletes and is coached by a SDHSAA member school coach during the Summer Time Period would be considered a “team contact (see next section).”
Further out of season rules - Where tournaments are allowed and All-Star events are not
e. Students and Leagues/Games/Tournaments:
i. Student Athletes may participate in Non-SDHSAA Leagues, Games or Tournaments on an unlimited basis, provided that the events are not taking place during the specified SDHSAA Sport Season.
f. Coaches and Leagues/Games/Tournaments:
i. Coaches may coach teams involved in out-of-season leagues, games or tournaments during the Summer Time Period only. This coaching will count toward the “Four Contact Rule” as stated later in this document.
IX. Club Teams
a. A Club Team is defined as a team that plays a schedule of multiple events with one another, with a minimum of three events. Members for this team are chosen by invitation or selected outright by some predetermined process.
b. Students and Club Teams
i. Students may participate on club teams on an unlimited basis outside of that sport’s given season
ii. During a specific SDHSAA Sport Season, students may not participate on any level with a club team. This participation includes a restriction on any/all club team games, practices, try-outs or other like activities.
c. Coaches and Club Teams (number of athletes below pertain to the number of athletes participating in the club sport in which the club team is participating. )
i. Coaches may coach a club team from the end of their individual sport season through July 31st given that the roster of that the club team being coached contains no more than the following number of students from any member school: basketball – 3, cheer – 5, cross country – 3, dance – 5, football – 7, golf – 3, gymnastics – 3, soccer – 7, softball -7, tennis – 3, track & field – 3, volleyball – 4, and wrestling – 3.
ii. Any team that has more than that given number of athletes and is coached by a SDHSAA member school coach during the Summer Time Period would be considered a “team contact (see next section).”
Quote from Skeeter on October 12, 2022, 9:03 amSo riddle me this, how can she participate in this during season? Did she forfeit the rest of her senior year to attend?
So riddle me this, how can she participate in this during season? Did she forfeit the rest of her senior year to attend?
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Quote from DSwartos on October 12, 2022, 9:29 amTo offer some clarification on this- The SDHSAA out of season rules define All-Star Events as "those events where participants are chosen by invitation or selected outright by some pre-determined process for a single event". In other words- is any kid able to attend, is it an open bracket, or are there hand selected matchups (as in the mythical "A Champs vs B Champs" duals that people have wanted forever). In the case of Night of Conflict- kids are pre-selected and invited and the event is marketed as #1 wrestler from this state vs. #1 wrestler from another state. The matches are all-predetermined. Pre-season tournaments are different because they're not pre-determined matchups, its a tournament and anyone could wrestle anyone depending up on the bracket. Sending teams of kids to AWA duals is a bit of a grey area, but again, its not a pre-selected individual vs pre-selected individual matchup. It's all a bit of grey area, I'll admit, and we are currently reviewing the entirety of our in and out of season handbook and making sure it all still makes sense. These types of events and the ability to attend is being reviewed. As noted before, we don't go looking for this, we act on things that are reported to us.
To further clarify- all kids are able to participate in these type of events over the summer. They can also participate following their season if they are seniors. Luke Rasmussen wrestled in this last Spring. This was allowable because it was after his Senior season. And again, any kid can do this all summer long. Once the school year starts, the hope is that they're participating in other sports and not having to make a choice of attending an all-star dual completely outside of their high school space or playing for their school's football team/running a race for their school's cross country team/playing a match for their school's volleyball or soccer team. The rules are in place to protect ALL of the high school programs, not just the ones that individual kids/families/fans/club owners deem most important and we can't sacrifice school programs for an attempt to get individual elite athletes more exposure. That's not intended to come across as a dig at anyone, there's just no other way to put it. We certainly want kids to get exposure, but our priority has to be to the schools and school programs, not to a club run event. Aside from that- 99% of the kids participating in events like this are already known/recruited/have received exposure. Their success has already provided them that exposure long before an event like this- they're hand selected and invited to an event like this BECAUSE their accomplishments to this point have brought them that exposure. To imply that kids in this elite group of athletes will receive or not receive a scholarship offer based on attendance or lack of attendance at a Night of Conflict-type event is a bit disingenuous. It then begs the question of who is the exposure of an event like this really for? I'll stop there. Additionally- in general, we try to promote multi-sport participation for a number of reasons- mental health, physical health/avoidance of overuse injuries, etc. The in-and-out of season handbook is a tightrope act and can be very complicated as you're trying to balance school programs with outside opportunities/exposure for kids. At the end of the day, our obligation is to schools and school programs.
I have nothing against the event itself or any club. I don't agree with the availability of alcohol at a youth sporting event or in $450 VIP tables at a youth sporting event, but I'm not the morality police. I paid the money and watched on Rofkin last Spring because Luke was in it, and it was a good event. I'm a wrestling guy and I think the sport in general has done a much, much better job of promoting itself over the last decade. We can argue about where that promotion line should be drawn, but that's for another time. The quality of wrestling in our region has improved greatly due to the additional availability of regional/national competition and due to many other factors, including clubs and events like this.
To offer some clarification on this- The SDHSAA out of season rules define All-Star Events as "those events where participants are chosen by invitation or selected outright by some pre-determined process for a single event". In other words- is any kid able to attend, is it an open bracket, or are there hand selected matchups (as in the mythical "A Champs vs B Champs" duals that people have wanted forever). In the case of Night of Conflict- kids are pre-selected and invited and the event is marketed as #1 wrestler from this state vs. #1 wrestler from another state. The matches are all-predetermined. Pre-season tournaments are different because they're not pre-determined matchups, its a tournament and anyone could wrestle anyone depending up on the bracket. Sending teams of kids to AWA duals is a bit of a grey area, but again, its not a pre-selected individual vs pre-selected individual matchup. It's all a bit of grey area, I'll admit, and we are currently reviewing the entirety of our in and out of season handbook and making sure it all still makes sense. These types of events and the ability to attend is being reviewed. As noted before, we don't go looking for this, we act on things that are reported to us.
To further clarify- all kids are able to participate in these type of events over the summer. They can also participate following their season if they are seniors. Luke Rasmussen wrestled in this last Spring. This was allowable because it was after his Senior season. And again, any kid can do this all summer long. Once the school year starts, the hope is that they're participating in other sports and not having to make a choice of attending an all-star dual completely outside of their high school space or playing for their school's football team/running a race for their school's cross country team/playing a match for their school's volleyball or soccer team. The rules are in place to protect ALL of the high school programs, not just the ones that individual kids/families/fans/club owners deem most important and we can't sacrifice school programs for an attempt to get individual elite athletes more exposure. That's not intended to come across as a dig at anyone, there's just no other way to put it. We certainly want kids to get exposure, but our priority has to be to the schools and school programs, not to a club run event. Aside from that- 99% of the kids participating in events like this are already known/recruited/have received exposure. Their success has already provided them that exposure long before an event like this- they're hand selected and invited to an event like this BECAUSE their accomplishments to this point have brought them that exposure. To imply that kids in this elite group of athletes will receive or not receive a scholarship offer based on attendance or lack of attendance at a Night of Conflict-type event is a bit disingenuous. It then begs the question of who is the exposure of an event like this really for? I'll stop there. Additionally- in general, we try to promote multi-sport participation for a number of reasons- mental health, physical health/avoidance of overuse injuries, etc. The in-and-out of season handbook is a tightrope act and can be very complicated as you're trying to balance school programs with outside opportunities/exposure for kids. At the end of the day, our obligation is to schools and school programs.
I have nothing against the event itself or any club. I don't agree with the availability of alcohol at a youth sporting event or in $450 VIP tables at a youth sporting event, but I'm not the morality police. I paid the money and watched on Rofkin last Spring because Luke was in it, and it was a good event. I'm a wrestling guy and I think the sport in general has done a much, much better job of promoting itself over the last decade. We can argue about where that promotion line should be drawn, but that's for another time. The quality of wrestling in our region has improved greatly due to the additional availability of regional/national competition and due to many other factors, including clubs and events like this.
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